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explaining the concept of the "voluntary society"
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geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

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Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 01/07/11, 09:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what happens if a strong-willed person (or a huge company) disagreed with the findings of a DRA ? Since they are not allowed to do things by force 'at the point of a gun', how could their decision ever be enforced against the will of a strong and powerful loser ?

And what happens when the prisons all get opened up because nobody voluntarily wants to run them ?

I think the result would be - quite literally- chaos.

G.
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voluntaryist.uk



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 09:51    Post subject: replies to questions Reply with quote

hi ima.lumberjack,
I will answer your questions, I'm off to write them up now..
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voluntaryist.uk



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 14:19    Post subject: rewards & punishment in a voluntary society Reply with quote

geoff wrote:
And what happens if a strong-willed person (or a huge company) disagreed with the findings of a DRA ? Since they are not allowed to do things by force 'at the point of a gun', how could their decision ever be enforced against the will of a strong and powerful loser ?G.


THE STATELESS SOCIETY AND VIOLENT CRIME

You might well now be thinking: how can a stateless society deal with violent criminals? This challenging question can be answered using three approaches. The first is to examine how such criminals are dealt with at present; the second is to divide violent crimes into crimes of motive and crimes of passion, and the third is to show how a stateless society would deal with both categories of crime far better than any existing system.

The first question is: how are violent criminals dealt with at present? The honest answer, to any unbiased observer, is surely: they are encouraged. A basic fact of life is that people respond to incentives. The better that crime pays, the more people will become criminals. Certain well-known habits – drugs, gambling, and prostitution in particular – are non-violent in nature, but highly desired by certain segments of the population. If these non- violent behaviors are criminalized, the profit gained by providing these services rises. Criminalizing voluntary interactions destroys all stabilizing social forces (contracts, open activity, knowledge- sharing and mediation), and so violence becomes the norm for dispute resolution.

Furthermore, wherever a law creates an environment where most criminals make more money than the police, the police simply become bribed into compliance. By increasing the profits of non- violent activities, the State ensures the corruption of the police and judicial system – thus making it both safer and more profitable to operate outside the law. It can take dozens of arrests to actually face trial – and many trials to gain a conviction. Policemen now spend about a third of their time filling out paperwork – and 90% of their time chasing non-violent criminals.

Entire sections of certain cities are run by gangs of thugs, and the jails are overflowing with harmless low-level peons sent to jail as make-work for the judicial system – thus constantly increasing law-enforcement costs. Peaceful citizens are also legally disarmed through gun control laws. In this manner, the modern State literally creates, protects and profits from violent criminals.

Thus the standard to compare the stateless society’s response to violent crime is not some perfect world where thugs are effectively dealt with, but rather the current mess where violence is both encouraged and protected.

Before we turn to how a stateless society deals with crime, however, it is essential to remember that the stateless society automatically eliminates the greatest violence faced by almost all of us – the State that threatens us with guns if we don’t hand over our money – and our lives, should it decide to declare war. Thus it cannot be said that the existing system is one which minimizes violence. Quite the contrary – the honest population is violently enslaved by the State, and the dishonest provided with cash incentives and protection.

State violence – in its many forms – has been growing in Western societies over the past fifty years, as regulation, tariffs and taxation have all risen exponentially. National debts are an obvious form of intergenerational theft. Support of foreign governments also increases violence, since these governments use subsidies to buy arms and further terrorize their own populations. The arms market is also funded and controlled by governments. The list of State crimes can go on and on, but one last gulag is worth mentioning – all the millions of poor souls kidnapped and held hostage in prisons for non-violent “crimes.”

Since existing States terrorize, enslave and incarcerate literally billions of citizens, it is hard to understand how they can be seen as effectively working against violence in any form. How does a stateless society deal with violence? First, it is important to differentiate the use of force into crimes of motive and crimes of passion. Crimes of motive are open to correction through changing incentives; any system which reduces the profits of property crimes – while increasing the profits of honest labor – will reduce these crimes. In the last part of this section, we will see how the stateless society achieves this better than any other option.

Crimes of motive can be diminished by making crime a low-profit activity relative to working for a living. Crime entails labor, and if most people could make more money working honestly for the same amount of labor, there will be far fewer criminals.

As you have read above, in a stateless society, Dispute Resolution Organizations (DROs) flourish through the creation of voluntary contracts between interested parties, and all property is private. How does this affect violent crime? Let’s look at “break and enter.” If I own a house, I will probably take out insurance against theft. Obviously, my insurance company benefits most from preventing theft, and so will encourage me to get an alarm system and so on, just as occurs now.

This situation is more or less analogous to what happens now – with the not inconsequential adjustment that, since DROs handle policing as well as restitution, their motives for preventing theft or rendering stolen property useless is far higher than it is now. As such, much more investment in prevention would be worthwhile, such as creating “voice activated” appliances which only work for their owners.

However, the stateless society goes much, much further in preventing crime – specifically, by identifying those who are going to become criminals, and preventing that transition. In this situation, the stateless society is far more effective than any State system.

In a stateless society, contracts with DROs are required to maintain any sort of economic life – without DRO representation, citizens are unable to get a job, hire employees, rent a car, buy a house or send their children to school. Any DRO will naturally ensure that its contracts include penalties for violent crimes – so if you steal a car, your DRO has the right to use force or ostracism against you to get the car back – and probably retrieve financial penalties to boot.

How does this work in practice? Let’s take a test case. Say that you wake up one morning and decide to become a thief. Well, the first thing you have to do is cancel your coverage with your DRO, so that your DRO has less incentive against you when you steal, since you are no longer a customer. DROs would have clauses allowing you to cancel your coverage, just as insurance companies have now. Thus you would have to notify your DRO that you were dropping coverage. No problem, you’re off their list.

However, DROs as a whole really need to keep track of people who have opted out of the entire DRO system, since those people have clearly signaled their intention to go rogue and live “off the grid.” Thus if you cancel your DRO insurance, your name goes into a database available to all DROs. If you sign up with another DRO, no problem, your name is taken out. However, if you do not sign up with any other DRO, red flags pop up all over the system. What happens then? Remember – there is no public property in a stateless society. If you’ve gone rogue, where are you going to go? You can’t take a bus – bus companies will not take rogues, because their DRO will require that they take only DRO-covered passengers, in case of injury or altercation. Want to fill up on gas? No luck, for the same reason. You can try hitchhiking, of course, which might work, but what happens when you get to your destination and try to rent a flat / house? No DRO card, no luck. Want to sleep in the park? Parks are privately owned, so keep moving.

Getting hungry? No groceries, no restaurants – no food! What are you going to do? So, really, what incentive is there to turn to a life of crime? Working for a living – and being protected by a DRO – pays really well. Going off the grid and becoming a rogue pits the entire weight of the combined DRO system against you – and, even if you do manage to survive and steal something, it has probably been voice-encoded or protected in some other manner against unauthorized use.

Let’s suppose that you somehow bypass all of that, and do manage to steal, where are you going to sell your stolen goods? You’re not protected by a DRO, so who will buy from you, knowing they have no recourse if something goes wrong? And besides, anyone who interacts with you may be dropped from the DRO system too, and face all the attendant difficulties. Will there be underground markets? Perhaps – but where would they operate? People need a place to live, cars to rent, clothes to buy, groceries to eat. No DRO means no participation in economic life.

As well, prostitution, gambling and drugs will not be “illegal” in a stateless society – and the elimination of the war on drugs alone would, it has been estimated, eliminate 80% of violent crime. There are no import duties or restrictions, so smuggling becomes completely pointless. Currency would be private, as we will see below, so counterfeiting will be much harder. Plus, no taxation – the take-home pay for an honest worker is far higher in a stateless society!

Fewer opportunities, lower profits – and greater incentives to do an honest day’s work – there is no better way to steer those who respond to incentives alone away from a life of crime. Thus it is fair to say that any stateless society will do a far better job of protecting its citizens against crimes of motive – what, then, about crimes of passion?

CRIMES OF PASSION
Crimes of passion are harder to prevent – but also present far less of a threat to those outside of the circle in which they occur. Let’s say that a man kills his wife. They are both covered by DROs, of course, and their DRO contracts would include specific prohibitions against murder. Thus, the man would be subject to all the sanctions involved in his contract – probably confined labor and rehabilitation until a certain financial penalty was paid off, since DROs would be responsible for paying such penalties to any next of kin. Fine, you say, but what if either the man or woman was not covered by a DRO? Well, where would they live? No one would rent them an apartment. If they own their house free and clear, who would sell them food? Or gas, water or electricity? Who would employ them? What bank would accept their money?

Let’s say that only the murderous husband – planning to kill his wife – opted out of his DRO system without telling her. The first thing that his wife’s DRO would do is inform her of her husband’s action – and the ill intent it may represent – and help her relocate if desired. If she decided against relocation, her DRO would promptly drop her, since by deciding to live in close proximity with a rogue man, she was exposing herself to an untenable amount of danger (and so the DRO to a high risk for financial loss). Now, both the husband and wife have chosen to live without DROs, in a state of nature, and thus face all the insurmountable problems of getting food, shelter, money and so on.

Thus, murderers would be subject to the punishments of their DRO restrictions, or would signal their intent by dropping DRO coverage beforehand, when intervention would be possible. Let’s look at something slightly more complicated – stalking. A woman becomes obsessed with a man, and starts calling him at all hours and following him around. Perhaps boils a bunny or two. If the man has bought insurance against stalking, his DRO will leap into action. It will call the woman’s DRO, which then says to her: stop stalking this man or we’ll drop you. And how does her DRO know whether she has really given up her stalking? Well, the man stops reporting it. And if there is a dispute, she just wears an ankle bracelet for a while to make sure. And remember – since there is no public property, she can be ordered off sidewalks, streets and parks. (If the man has not bought insurance against stalking, no problem – it will just be more expensive to buy with a “pre-existing condition.”)

Although they may seem unfamiliar to you, DROs are not a new concept – they are as ancient as civilization itself, but have been shouldered aside by the constant escalation of State power over the last century or so. In the past, undesired social behaviour was punished through ostracism, and risks ameliorated through voluntary “friendly societies.” A man who left his wife and children – or a woman who got pregnant out of wedlock – was no longer welcome in decent society. DROs take these concepts one step further, by making all the information formerly known by the local community available to the world as whole, just like credit reports. (If you prefer your information to be kept more private, DROs will doubtless offer this option.) There are really no limits to the benefits that DROs can confer upon a free society – insurance could be created for such things as:
• a man’s wife giving birth to a child that is not his own;
• a daughter getting pregnant out of wedlock;
• fertility problems for a married couple;
• …and much more.
All of the above insurance policies would require DROs to take active steps to prevent such behaviors – the mind boggles at all the preventative steps that could be taken! The important thing to remember is that all such contracts are voluntary, and so do not violate the moral absolute of non-violence.

In conclusion – how does the stateless society deal with violent criminals? Brilliantly! In a stateless society, there are fewer criminals, more prevention, greater sanctions – and instant forewarning of those aiming at a life of crime by their withdrawal from the DRO system. More incentives to work, fewer incentives for a life of crime, no place to hide for rogues, and general social rejection of those who decide to operate outside of the civilized world of contracts, mutual protection and general security. And remember – governments in the 20th century caused more than 200 million deaths – are we really that worried about private hold-ups and jewelry thefts in the face of those kinds of numbers?

There is no system that will replace faulty men with perfect angels, but the stateless society, by rewarding goodness and punishing evil, will at least ensure that all devils are visible – instead of cloaking them in the current deadly fog of power, politics and propaganda.

reproduced with kind permission from: "Practical Anarchy" by: Stefan Molyneux, MA
http://www.freedomainradio.com/free/books/FDR_5_PDF_Practical_Anarchy_Audiobook.pdf


Last edited by voluntaryist.uk on 04/07/11, 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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geoff



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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 07:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

VUK,

I think you should be aware that someone else is plagiarising your work.

Someone called David Friedman, self-styled "anarchist-anachronist-economist" seems to have reproduced quite a lot of what you wrote in his
"The Machinery of Freedom" here...

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freedom/MofF_Chapter_29.html

He seems to have simply ripped off what you said and then presented it as his own work ?

G.
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voluntaryist.uk



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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 15:07    Post subject: re; plagarism etc... Reply with quote

the ideas of voluntaryism / anarchism expressed here are taken from: "Practical Anarchy" by: Stefan Molyneux, MA http://www.freedomainradio.com/free/books/FDR_5_PDF_Practical_Anarchy_Audiobook.pdf

I made some alterations for the UK audience, but the work source is his. he writes so well, i would have trouble trying to explain the concept as well as he does. I am not so sure about the other chap you mentioned.
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voluntaryist.uk



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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 17:05    Post subject: answers to questions from "ima.lumberjack" Reply with quote

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
number of questions:
1.) If I follow you correctly, you are saying that chaos will not be the order of the day, as we can rely on DRO's (dispute resolution agency's) to make sure that we all rub along nicely. Would these operate like car insurance does now?
more or less, the DRO's would for the most part ensure that all parties are treated equally (it would be in the DRO's interest to do so) And most people would have a DRO of some kind that they would use, for business, personal, travel, property, etc. see: http://www.freedomainradio.com/free/books/FDR_5_PDF_Practical_Anarchy_Audiobook.pdf page 70, DISPUTE RESOLUTION ORGANIZATIONS

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
2.) law & order & peace. can you explain a bit more about this, would i need to be armed? to protect me & mine?
you would not "need" to be armed, but you would be free to do so, the choice would be yours, you could sign up with a DRO that allows, lets, insists on it & they would of course make sure as part of your "cover" that you undertake regular firearms training, & showed that you are a responsible person & don't go blasting up the street, etc.. otherwise you would not get any cover from them or anyone else either. Because you do not need to pay taxes, you would have a large portion of your hard earned money back & as such you would be able to hire private security firm to protect you round the clock, with armed guards if need be. the incentive on protect of you & your assets would be higher than it is now, with most people having to rely on their insurance simply paying out in the event of theft, as the police cannot keep up with crime levels. this is in part due to so many crimes of prohibition, against drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc. remove these as "crimes" & your chosen protection service would be able to protect you far better than the police do now.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
3.) property rights & planning "permission" : how would I stop someone building some monstrosity in front of my lovely view of the sea / lake etc...
in a word property rights, when buying a house, you would be able to ensure that no one would be able to do this without your permission or without paying you compensation for doing so. again a DRO would come into the equation

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
4.) how would I have fair access to services, like doctors, hospitals, justice, roads, etc.
how fair is your access now? lets not imagine that the state provided services are plated in gold & everything is rosy. However that aside, how's your access to supermarkets? what about petrol stations? how about shopping centers? see all of these are businesses, it is in their interest to ensure that as many people have access to their products & services. Post government "public services" would be like this too. say you have a limited budget, well the local surgery could have a "basics Health care" package, just like most supermarkets have a "basics" food line. even the poor would be able to access services, i imagine that a local surgery would have "free clinics" like most cities in north america have now. good for public relations & also good for doctor training as well. But remember I do not have all the answers, some services would be solved in ways i could not even imagine. try it yourself as a thought exercise, how do you think this could be solved?

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
5.) say for example that I wanted to do on holiday to the USA, if the Uk was a fully voluntary society, how would I get into the USA without a passport?
Travel companies would ensure that you would be able to enter other countries, coz you are paying them to take you there, some solution like that would be possible.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
6.) green issues, without a government to enforce the green laws, how would we stop killing the planet?
property rights again, you would be insured against big business polluting your environment, probably better enforced that weak government action. With compensation to the persons having suffered the damage / pollution & with the requirement that the polluter actually cleans up the mess & does not repeat the damage for fear of losing DRO cover. can you see the government doing this now? no, didn't think so.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
7.) education, lets say that I am poor, so poor that I do not have any spare money to pay for my children's education, how would they get educated?
see answer to question 4 "access to services" with so much more money in Society as a whole, well meaning folk (like they did in the Victorian Period) would set up schools to help educate the poor or those that could not afford it. what's to stop world class businesses doing so? as part of a work benefits package, educate your child at the company school.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
8.) old age pension, please explain how the poor would be helped in old age? I for example do not have a huge pension pot at all, but it would be better than nothing.
currently we have a pensions time bomb, that's ticking away, but it is only as such because government has raided pensions, time & time again. It has placed strong disincentives on saving, it has made complex & arcane laws on financial transactions & has made saving for retirement a complete nightmare. with out government doing all of these things the pension situation would be much better. add the fact that we'd all have more money to invest into our pensions / savings due to no TAXES being paid the future with government would NOTbe a pension time bomb

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
9.) fights in clubs, bars, riots etc... how would this be tackled in the absence of "police" how would justice be served? how would a property owner get compensation for damage done? how would wrongdoers be "punished"? would there be jails? courts etc?
see answers to questions 2 & 3 everyone would have insurance / a DRO of some kind, if you are a violent person you would have to not only pay a higher premium, but you might find your insurance insists on say, anger management, or reserving the right to not pay out if you do get into a fight. compensation would be handled by the insurance / DRO's remember it is in their interest to ensure claimants have speedy payouts, to keep their good name etc. "wrongdoers" would be punished where it hurts, in their pockets. we would only ever need to resort to imprisonment for the most violent of offenders.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
10.) how would we stop hordes & hordes of people coming into the UK? with no border control & no immigration services what's to stop every poor person in the world flooding into the tax free & government control free UK?
what's to stop them now? our border controls are a joke, daily it seems we hear about some security lapse or other, some so called illegal immigrants given leave to stay, in a future without government where commerce rules the day, illegal immigrant or not they would have to have insurance of some kind, they would have to belong to a DRO & there would be no state to "sponge" off so more than likely "illegal immigrants" would tail off hugely.

ima.lumberjack.imok wrote:
11.) monarchy, please explain how this would still work?
this is a good one, i'll place it under clubs, religions, etc if you do not mind. If the Uk was to be a Voluntaryist Society, ie with no rulers etc, then the monarchy would not exist. however, one can see the huge attachment that some people have in the UK to this outmoded institution and as such they would be free to form their own "monarchy club" much in the same way that there are historical re-enactment societies now, it would become something like that I think. but who's to say, it might just not even exist at all, seeing as there would be no taxes to fund them they might just whither on the vine.

I trust I have answered your questions, please feel free to come back for more. Remember, i am only giving possible solutions, how do you think that current "problems" could be solved without government coercion, ie: my gun to the head? imaginative solutions would be the order of the day, prevention rather than cure or damage control. how do you think things could be?

PEACE, but not to statist's, corporatist's & hierarchist's

"No service should be provided out the barrel of a gun. This is not freedom, it is tyranny"
http://voluntary-exchanges-only.blogspot.com
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geoff



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PostPosted: 05/07/11, 09:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm beginning to get the impression that in essence you are suggesting replacing the current government by elected Parliament, by government by self-appointed DROs ?

I also do not understand how you could realistically have a concept of currency under a voluntaryist regime - there would be nothing to back it up and guarantee its value.

G
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PostPosted: 05/07/11, 09:30    Post subject: re: DRO's etc.. Reply with quote

geoff wrote:
I'm beginning to get the impression that in essence you are suggesting replacing the current government by elected Parliament, by government by self-appointed DROs ?


do you have a choice when you vote? can you choose to NOT be governed? no you can only choose your master not complete freedom, the DOR system will allow you more choice, if you do not like the deal you are getting with your insurance company, do you just put up with it? no of course not, you go look for a better deal, saving money etc in the process. having government does not allow you this liberty, you have to put up with it & shut up about it too & pay for the privilege of being told what to do how to do it & when to do it. DRO's would be much more flexible, more cost effective, better to actually meet your needs, not simply offer a one size fits all.

geoff wrote:
I also do not understand how you could realistically have a concept of currency under a voluntaryist regime - there would be nothing to back it up and guarantee its value. G


this is a very good question, goes to the root of money itself, so what is money? well in a nutshell money is trust, when you use money, or some form of IOU, ie: cheques you are asking the person you are trading with " I want those goods, here is my sign of good faith" this note, these coins, this item in exchange etc. now there are very many ways to exchange goods, i can say, I've got a crop of potatoes, can I change that for your crop of eggs. or I've got a certified gold coin issued by the bank of Lyme Regis, can i buy your services for a day, week, etc. See, in a completely free society any person / business entity would be free to issue "money" / notes of credit etc. to prosper & do well they would have to ensure that the product (money in this case) could be trusted, so they would go out of their way to ensure this is the case, by say, getting an outside agency to certify their gold, silver, credit worthiness, etc.

But remember, no matter what ideas I come up with here & now in a completely free society who knows what ideas people & businesses will come up with to solve all sorts of problems, money, justice, health care, schools, roads, try it yourself, imagine a problem & now create some none governmental solutions. It will be a better world, where more people take more responsibility for themselves & their actions, their personal lives, their children, etc.
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