uplyme.com Forum Index uplyme.com
The Uplyme Debate
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Can Uplyme become a Libertarian Society?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    uplyme.com Forum Index -> Community
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
voluntaryist.uk



Joined: 23 Mar 2010

Posts: 74
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 23/03/10, 16:01    Post subject: Can Uplyme become a Libertarian Society? Reply with quote

Hi All, I love our Village, it's a great place to live, where most folk get on with one another, most of the time (99.9%) We have an active and engaged local population with well attended local groups & functions, like the Brownie Guides Tea Party just the other day (which was lovely by the way)

But I was wondering if we could perhaps think of an even more Libertarian way of living. A society that relied less on RULES & more on the Responsibility. Let's face it 99.9% of us are responsible, peaceful, lawful people

The less rules we have the less likely we would need someone to enforce those rules. (perhaps even less tax as well?... hopefully) So can anyone think of a local rule or law (bylaw) that we could all do without?

I'll start the ball rolling: the dog ban on the King George Playing Fields. Had there been significant reporting of dog associated problems? or is is some over-hyped health & safety concern? http://www.eastdevon.gov.uk/uplyme-2.gif

there are a number of things that need to be addressed regarding this ban, 1st someone had to assess the "problem", someone then had to "consult" on the "problem" a "recommendation" had to be made, a "committee" (probably Parish) had to vote & then the rule / law written up & enacted & henceforth "enforced". All of which costs money & not just once but on-going money.

Do you see my point on rules now? Rules/Laws = Money/Taxes, ergo: less rules = less taxes. Stands to reason does it not?

anyway that's my rule I want removed, over to you Uplyme....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 704
Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 23/03/10, 20:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent first post Voluntaryist and may I be the first to welcome to the forum !

Whilst I would tend to agree in principle that we are over-governed and that we could probably manage to get along quite nicely with less rules/laws/bylaws/T&Cs/policies etc, I cannot support your call to allow dogs to use the kids playing field as a toilet again.

A couple of years ago I was one of the many dads who supported the excellent Crusaders junior football sessions on Saturday mornings for the village kids. Two of us used to have to clean up the dog mess from the grass where the kids were about to play. Three dollops was the average haul Sad

I'm not anti-dog and to an extent I am anti-over-governance, but whilst there are thoughtless or careless dog owners who think the playing field is a dog toilet, we need to be able to prevent this disgusting behaviour which endangers our kids health. Polite signs have been in place for years at the gate asking owners to remove any mess made by their dogs, but this has had little effect, so now more stringent rules have had to be created.

I would be interested to know how voluntaryist would solve this problem if less rules is the way ahead ?

As to a rule I would like to see abolished - how about the County Council policy that dictates that streetlights have to be on all night in the village even when there is no one in the street ? Why not switch most of them off at midnight and save a pile of cash and a vast amount of unnecessary CO2 emission.

G.
_________________
it's never too late
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Donna22



Joined: 04 Apr 2006

Posts: 61
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 24/03/10, 13:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a shame that some Dog owners ruin it for other people part of having a dog is knowing that you have to use a poop a scoop but also the village should have allocated dog poo bins so people do pick it up and dont fling it in trees etc.
Some of the poo on the field is also caused by Badges but i have seen dogs on the field without a lead which i do not agree with as you have no control over the dog and it meeting other dogs esp when kids are about and most do not like dogs.

They cannot stop you walking along to the footpath to the field after and as far was i was aware the signed that should have been enforcing the matter in October havent appeared yet but i may be wrong.

I am glad you enjoyed the Brownie evening it did go well considering the time we did everything in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
voluntaryist.uk



Joined: 23 Mar 2010

Posts: 74
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 24/03/10, 13:32    Post subject: RE: Dog Control, Reply with quote

Hi to you both, Perhaps the dog control thing is just too controversial. I like geoff's idea for the street lights, perhaps if they were motion detector activated, (of course via a suitable threshold, like person, car etc.) But that Might be more annoying to those that live by one. how about they switch off at midnight & come on again at 5/6 am.

btw, a libertarian idea could be to have someone who hands out poop bags to those who visit with their dogs, it would cost less than the current arrangement & the idea that someone is watching you would deter most. what do you think?

Lets have some more Libertarian Ideas please....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 704
Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 24/03/10, 16:36    Post subject: Re: RE: Dog Control, Reply with quote

voluntaryist.uk wrote:
...a libertarian idea could be to have someone who hands out poop bags to those who visit with their dogs, it would cost less than the current arrangement....


At risk of seeming pedantic, I just don't see how that is going to be cheaper. The fouling can happen at any time, so you would need to employ a person to be there 12+hrs every day (especially on bank holidays) at minimum wage of 5.50 or whatever it is plus the usual employment taxes on top.

We are talking a minimum of 30k cost to the Council - how is that cheaper than posting signs and prosecuting offenders to give it some teeth ?

On the 'part-night lighting' issue, there is just no excuse for continuing the current wasteful policies.

I don't know, but surely libertarianism is about more than this ? Maybe it would be helpful if you could give us a bitesized idea of what the principles involved are ?

How would a libertarian local community look ?
How would it deal with non-libertarian offenders ?
How would libertarians run the country ?
How would our ever-dwindling freedoms be affected ?

G.
_________________
it's never too late
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
voluntaryist.uk



Joined: 23 Mar 2010

Posts: 74
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 24/03/10, 17:03    Post subject: Re: Libertainian Uplyme Reply with quote

Bite sized Libertarian / Voluntaryist Society:

The idea
- You own your life
- You own the fruits of your labor
- You decide

You are the sole owner of your body and the fruits of your labor. You should be free to sell your labor, to trade with others or to give gifts, without any other person having the right to any of it. Only you should be able to decide what happens to your person and with whom you associate. In either case governments form no exception, and so protection organizations should too rely on voluntary contributions and associations. This is the only way to prevent tyranny.

The idea is explained here: http://vforvoluntary.com/index.php?p=7

for more ideas on this see here: http://www.vforvoluntary.com/wiki/Home

[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 704
Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 09:15    Post subject: Re: Libertainian Uplyme Reply with quote

voluntaryist.uk wrote:
Bite sized Libertarian / Voluntaryist Society:

The idea
- You own your life
- You own the fruits of your labor
- You decide


I'm, struggling with applying a concept of ownership to something like your life ? Clearly your labour is something you sell to your employer.
As to the deciding, then I think I am probably with you. Hence the discussions on (not) voting here http://www.uplyme.com/debate/viewtopic.php?t=656

Libertarianism sounds intreguing in that is seems to be more a philosophy than something practical with real-world answers ? Am I missing the point ? For example, how could we apply Libertarianist principles to say, global warming - probably the most important issue in our lifetime ?

G.
_________________
it's never too late
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rev



Joined: 06 Jan 2010

Posts: 186

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 09:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertarianism sounds a bit like an individualistic ideology - and it will only ever remain as an ideology. Please can you provide examples of where this ideology is actually working in practice?

I'm afraid that there are always going to be people in this world who want to take what you claim is yours. In a Libertarian society, what is stopping them from forming into groups, gangs if you will, and plundering your enclave? Yes, under Libertarian guidelines (because of course, they are not rules) you can elect leaders and ask others to voluntarily defend you.

Will Uplyme become a Libertarian society? No thanks. Give me a democratic society, however flawed. The very fact that we live in a peaceful neighbourhood, with rules that mean I can't let my dogs foul the playing fields, a locally elected leader whom I can l lobby about street lighting being on in the night (good idea by the way Geoff) speaks volumes to me. So, yes, I will be voting.

Libertarianism is a cover for individualism - something that I fear is at the root of our real problems in society - the putting of self before others.

P.S. The Brownie tea was super - I particularly liked the green cakes (I had three)! Well done Uplyme Brownies!! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
voluntaryist.uk



Joined: 23 Mar 2010

Posts: 74
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 10:03    Post subject: working example of libertarian society Reply with quote

http://home.arcor.de/danneskjoeld/X/Som/

above is a fine example of a free society in action, today! Somalia is not a failed state it is a non-state.

In fact on the above page there are lots of further example & explanations on free society & true libertarianist society and how it would work, etc...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rev



Joined: 06 Jan 2010

Posts: 186

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 10:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far from being a fine example, Somalia has a real problem with piracy - a direct consequence of the collapse of governmental authority. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 704
Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 10:27    Post subject: Re: working example of libertarian society Reply with quote

voluntaryist.uk wrote:
http://home.arcor.de/danneskjoeld/X/Som/
above is a fine example of a free society in action, today! Somalia is not a failed state it is a non-state.


Where the punishment for 'adultry' is stoning to death under some Islamic hokum ? (Source: New York Post, Dec '09: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/somalia_stoning_horror_a000UGWmvaYikkYf7NjxKL )

Somalia sounds like a bandit's playground, ripe for indoctrination by religeous zealots.

So is Voluntaryism the same as anarchy ? If so, it is unlikely to be of interest to an 'enlightened' society in which we have discovered that humans are naturally (instinctively) clannish and that our clannish behaviour can be used to the good of all - as long as we do not grant absolute power to our leaders.

G.
_________________
it's never too late
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rev



Joined: 06 Jan 2010

Posts: 186

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 11:04    Post subject: Re: working example of libertarian society Reply with quote

geoff wrote:
as long as we do not grant absolute power to our leaders.


or webmasters... Wink

Geoff, you are bang on. Something about voids being filled methinks...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
voluntaryist.uk



Joined: 23 Mar 2010

Posts: 74
Location: Uplyme

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 11:17    Post subject: No converts here then Reply with quote

So, no converts here then,

I can see that open society is not ready for some in Uplyme, the points you pick out about Somalia are true, but, that is the way that they want their society to be, stonings & all.

It does not mean ours would be the same, would it?

please read more on voluntaryism here:

http://www.voluntaryist.com/
or here:
http://www.vforvoluntary.com/wiki/Home

or here: http://mises.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rev



Joined: 06 Jan 2010

Posts: 186

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 11:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just trying to be realistic about an ideology that promises an individualistic utopia. I've red about Libertarianism and I think it is found wanting from both a practical and ethical stand-point. I'm excited about a community that looks to the interests of others before self - perhaps another idealistic utopia - however, my experience has been that the very best of the community in Uplyme is where this takes place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
geoff



Joined: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 704
Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 25/03/10, 11:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I don't think anyone is converted yet, but perhaps you haven't put a very convincing case yet ? In the example of dog fouling, people wanted the change. In the example of Somalia, it is not a shining example of Nirvana.

If you really do believe in voluntaryism please give us an example of how it can actually change something - as I said earlier how could it help to solve a real world issue such as global warming ? As an individual I have taken the decision to use my car less and to use the bus and train more. I am careful to reduce my families wastage of electricity, but acting as an individual I can change nothing.

Incidentally, I see that despite the forum being quiet at the moment you have had over a hundred people read your posting already - that is unusually high in a short time, so someone is interested in your topic !

G.
_________________
it's never too late
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    uplyme.com Forum Index -> Community All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group