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Freedom to think
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truthinadvertising



Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: 01/07/11, 12:34    Post subject: Freedom to think Reply with quote

Freethinking

I thought it would be useful to make a home here for those of us who live by sense and reason rather than superstition and blind belief. I would reckon that that would include most of the village. If I say that I considered using the title: ‘living without religion’ then you will get a better idea.
Uplyme is very close to Lyme Regis, the home of one of the top 10 British women influencing the history of science. I am referring to Mary Anning of course, whose discovery of and knowledge of the fossils from our cliffs led to a much greater understanding of evolution. Since her time there have been great advances in research into such as genes, DNA, radio-carbon dating and astronomy. All of these support the theory of evolution which is always taking place. I have here a fossil, an Ammonite from the Charmouth area, approx. 180 million years old. How do the christians reconcile this with their bible and Noah’s Ark?
Of course they cannot as the bible, koran and all those other religious writings were products of the imagination of groups of men seeking wealth and power. I say MEN for sure and not women. In all religions the ‘elite’, the priests and ministers, live in luxury compared with their poorest believers. Think of the old rectory in Uplyme which became the Devon Hotel. Palatial compared with the farmworker’s cottage I grew up in with no electricity and no bathroom and the toilet a bucket in a hut at the bottom of the garden. Yet it was the misguided poor of the village that paid for it all with their pennies in the church plate.
I digress to say that I was born and bred in Uplyme and went to the village school and then the grammar school in the days of Charlie Freeman and James Bestick..
I am happy to accept that people find succour and hope in some sort of ‘faith’. Some people are motivated to charity and clean living by belief in some of the scriptures. A careful study of the bible and the koran will expose many contradictions and cruelties and evils carried out and justified by the contents. The bible states that words came from a snake and purports to know exactly what someone said even though written down a hundred or hundreds of years later.
Let us cut to the quick. No one has ever seen a god whether it is called zeus, jehovah, allah , christ (trinity) or anything else. No one can say where these gods are. No one can show that prayer makes an iota of difference to anything: it is just a waste of time.
Years ago I was very ill with a sickness from which only about 1 in 7 recovered. My good friend at the time and who still is, maintains that my recovery was due to his daily prayers for me. What kind of god is this that can save my life on whim but allow six others to die? My actual recovery was due to streptomycin, manufactured by scientists, only three years before.
Back to freethinking and this is what we should be bringing up our children to do. Think for themselves and not subject to their parent’s or their school’s superstitions. If Uplyme children were actually born in Tel Aviv or Karachi would they not be muslims? The Uplyme school is in the process of brainwashing the village children. Does the school teach evolution? I’ll bet not. I am not against some sort of RE but worship in school is very wrong. Things have been getting worse since Charlie Freeman’s time and it is time that a stop was put to it.
What I would hope to achieve in posting this would be gather support in the village to make some changes at the school. To explain to churchgoers that they are being held in thraldom and bondage and their time and money would be much better spent helping their less fortunate brethren than supporting a useless and sometimes corrupt religion.

My prediction for the rest of 2011 is that one god or another will visit us here on earth as many times as he/she has done so in the last 4 1/2 billion years.
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luey



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 15:17    Post subject: freethought Reply with quote

Fossils don't lie; preachers do.
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T Total



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 19:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I ask if you have children at the school?
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truthinadvertising



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 20:27    Post subject: free to thnk Reply with quote

Not now, but nephew's children attend
I gain knowledge of the school from their website
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T Total



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PostPosted: 01/07/11, 20:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you check the name of the school there is a big clue. Besides why do you need to be involved in what and who they worship. If a parent is agaisnt a child attending christian worship they should find a alternative school, As I understand the local uplyme school is a 'Church of england school' .
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luey



Joined: 07 May 2011

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PostPosted: 02/07/11, 01:35    Post subject: freedom to think Reply with quote

the mysteries, on belief in which theology would hang the destinies of humankind, are cunningly devised fables whose origin and growth are traceable to the age of Ignorance, the mother of credulity.
Edward Clodd
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truthinadvertising



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PostPosted: 02/07/11, 17:23    Post subject: freedom to think Reply with quote

reply to t-total
Thank you for your response and I take your point.

How is the school a CofE school? If it were owned and managed solely by the church then you would be right.

I would think that the school is 100% a state school and with no funding at all from the church.

This means that it is only history and present staff which justifies the church connection: shortchanging the non-religious of the village by not offering a choice

1) The school is obliged by law to offer a 'non-religious' schooling if parents wish. I wonder if it does? This option used to be mentioned in the school propectus. I cannt find it now. See subject 'Our CoE school' I posted earlier.

2) Children are being taught that the bible is truthful which I disagree with and, although my children do not attend, is palpably false and ANY child should not be taught this but to think for themselves.

3) What about if parents cannot afford transport to a non CofE school? Their children run the risk of being ostracised or harassed at Uplyme school if they opt out. Their parents may not like to run the risk of this.
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Rev



Joined: 06 Jan 2010

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PostPosted: 02/07/11, 19:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TruthinAdvertising - what is your name? Mine's Gavin Tyte, and I'm a Christian. Smile I'm part of a wonderful and generous church that makes the poor and needy a priority. I'm a vicar. I live in a lush house (donated to the church by previous parishioners) and I'm very grateful - and constantly asking God how we can use it as a resource for good. My pay isn't vast - I get about 14K per year (before tax, etc.) I believe in freedom of speech and I don't seek to ban atheism or any other system of belief. Why? Because I believe it is right to let people live with or without God and I also believe in the right to respect freewill. Mrs Ethelston's is a Church of England school - it was founded by the church. Parents are free to choose to send their children to the school. Something like 60% are out of catchment yet they still choose to send their children to the school! I don't believe the Bible contradicts the theory of evolution. Like many Christians, I don't think the story in Genesis is literal but a beautiful poem that asserts that God created, not how God created, and that you need to read and understand the Bible in context. God is big enough to use whatever he likes to grow and develop the world! At Mrs Ethelston's we teach science and religion. We teach freedom for children to think for themselves. Parents and children are not obliged or forced to attend Christian worship but are welcome to do so. Hope that helps. Much love and peace! Smile

http://www.churchofengland.org/education/church-schools-academies.aspx
http://www.churchofengland.org/education/faqs.aspx
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Robin



Joined: 14 Nov 2005

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Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 02/07/11, 23:15    Post subject: Freedom to think Reply with quote

@truthinadvertising - What is your name? I'm Robin.
The school has been a Christian, CofE school since Rev Etheleston (a vicar of this parish by the way) built it. Why now do you think that "most of the village" have got a problem with it? They don't seem to have had a problem for the past 150+ years! I think you are wrong, most of the village value the Christian ethos in the school & if parents do not want there children to go to a VA school, and live more than 3 miles from a VC one they can get transport.

Now, using your "sense & reason" why don't you apply to be a Governor at the school, say a council appointment, so there is no "religious" tag attached to it and change things from within? You could then find out exactly who has similar feelings to you by being personally involved. You could also find out exactly what the Diocese involvement in the school is.

Just a couple of other things.

1) Rev Bestic was a wealthy person and funded his own ministry in the village along with the rectory and left a trust fund for the use of the school. So it was not the "the misguided poor of the village that paid for it all with their pennies in the church plate."

2) You say "The Uplyme school is in the process of brainwashing the village children". It's been a Church School since it was started, then surely by having attended the school you're a product of this brainwashing? Ergo your comments, influences and arguments are therefore a by product of that education and hence flawed?

Everybody has a choice, including you.

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Peter.Single



Joined: 17 Aug 2010

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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 14:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

A while back, in another post, Geoff said.
"I think it is wrong to force one's beliefs onto other people - especially those who are not in a position to be able to question it, for example children - is this any better than a form of spiritual bullying ? "

And the rev said
"Thanks Geoff - I ... totally agree with you about indoctrination".

And then later we saw the rev on the telly, doing exactly that !

I have nothing personally to do with the school, but if the Rev's part of it, then the kids are being indoctrinated; and, what I find difficult to accept, it seems the parents don't mind.

And why on earth tax payers should fund a faith school is utterly beyond me. We keep saying there's a separation of state and religion, but while we have to pay for them to continue indoctrinating kids, this just isn't true.
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Rev



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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 15:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, sorry Peter - you are clearly very much misinformed about how religion is taught in school. Peter, tell me what I said on television that was indoctrination? You can't, because at Marshwood School, I went in and I performed beatboxing and a nativity rap for the children - nothing more. In fact, why don't you call the headteacher at Marshwood and ask her? I'm sure she would be happy to put you straight.

Peter (if that is your name), you have never been to the school and this is very clear in your ignorance of how it operates. Please stop posting false accusations and get your facts straight otherwise it just looks like you are spreading malicious rumours about our lovely school and staff. They do a fantastic job, are totally fair and are very clear with the children about matters of faith.

btw: I pointed this thread out to parents, headteacher and chair of governors and they wished me to express to you that you are welcome to come and visit the school and see for yourself how the children are taught. I suggest you take them up on it. Smile
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truthinadvertising



Joined: 25 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: 04/07/11, 20:39    Post subject: freedom to think Reply with quote

I thank everybody for their responses and would like to reply given a little time. My ch... (yuks! nearly said christian) first name is Roy I do not now live within the village but several of my family with the same name do . I would prefer not to display this due to the possibility that some religious people will associate them with my views (not discussed with them) and harass them.
I just would say in response to rev's last posting that the village school website says:-
We share an absolute commitment which:
...................
...................
Values honesty, sensitivity and responsibility in all relationships through our christian values'

This to me by implication means that non-christians do no have this commitment.

This is a most disgusting thing to say and to teach to young children It should be removed immediately. Also the legal option on opting out of worship should be prominently displayed on the school website
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Robin



Joined: 14 Nov 2005

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Location: Lyme Rd, Uplyme

PostPosted: 04/07/11, 21:10    Post subject: Indoctrination of Children Reply with quote

Peter who's single,

As past governor for 10 years & Chairman of the PTA twice, I take great exception in you accusing the Teachers, Parents and governing body of allowing "Indoctrination" to take place in the school! Is Math, English, Science, Geography indoctrinating children? Because they were all there on the National Curriculum along with RE and a host of other subjects.

Both my boys went through the school and celebrated all sorts of Religious festivals including Diwali, Nirvana, Hanukka, Ramadan & Easter. I don't think they were indoctrinated when they went to Woodroffe. They are not christians, but have a great understanding & tolerance of all faiths

As for keeping the Church out of Education. I think you'll find that in the 1800's during a period of 11 years the Church of England built over 1 school a week for this country, some 600 schools. This allowed the poor of this country to get an education for many many years. Here we have the boot on the other foot, the Church funding the education of the tax payers! Consequently many of those schools were handed over by the church to the government at their request during an education reform.

During my tenure at the school, the diocese stumped up money, professional advice, help, support and resources to help get the school to where it is today - "An outstanding School" according to Ofsted.

My suggestion to you is the same as to Roy, get involved with the school and see what happens for yourself.

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Peter.Single



Joined: 17 Aug 2010

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PostPosted: 05/07/11, 08:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gavin (if that is your name Very Happy ) and Robin.
I certainly don't wish to malign the school; I know it has maintained an excellent educational reputation for a long time, and long may that continue.
But I do agree with Roy that it advertises itself as a christian school ("organised within the doctrines of the church of England") and therefore, presumably, uses taxpayers money to push its 'christian values'. Its web site states that "the daily Act of Worship is central and fundamental to the life and ethos of our church school". I merely think he is entitled to object to that.

Of course maths, english, science etc aren't indoctrination. But unless you are teaching christianity on a par with Zeus, Mithra, Apollo etc then some might say that that is indoctrination.

But as you correctly say I do not know this school well; mine is a more general objection to publicly financed faith schools (of all denominations) paying to teach children religious nonsense.

Peter
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truthinadvertising



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PostPosted: 06/07/11, 09:32    Post subject: freedom to think Reply with quote

I thank everybody for very reasoned responses to my original posting. It seems that Geoff’s contribution has gone missing – a pity. I have learned a lot.
The school is a VA school. I think the only contribution the church makes is to provide the buildings.
Although the school has been nominally CofE it has been seen as just the village school for most of its life. I knew 3 head teachers: Charlie Freeman, Mr Lake and Mr Denham. None of these flogged the religious connection like the present incumbent and her predecessor. The average person in the village just regards it as an excellent village school never mind the religion. If I had children of school age in the village I would hope to enter them into the Uplyme school. I would tell them, at home, about religion and its evils: they can make up their own minds.
We are told that the school has good relations with the Woodroffe School and Colyton Grammar.
Oh my! How can the village school allow their leavers to attend these two schools. They are both NON DENOMINATIONAL. Why does the village school not recommend a CofE secondary school to its parents? Simple answer really; where is it? No, it is just those of a very tender age and are less questioning and who can be brainwashed that attend these CofE establishments.
The thing is:- all the religious nonsense is just –MEANINGLESS. Why worry too much if it is all just nothing really. Well……, christian beliefs are not harmless. Think of the many thousands of people even millions who have suffered and died because of them. Take two books; say, Harry Potter and the bible. Both fairy stories but Harry Potter has some use in entertaining and amusing; the bible just propagating evil.
I notice that no one has answered the question I posed ‘what kind of god is this that can save my life on whim and allow six others to die.?’ They were being prayed for as well. Think of the tribulations in such places as Iraq, Iran, Pakistan. The subjugation of women and intolerance of other religions.
I anticipate that you will say that Christians are not like that. Consider perhaps the Magdelene Laundries or the mission of Catholic priests; ‘Let us prey’. We have the very selective examples given in the school website. E.g., children asked to state the bounties god has provided them this day. What about all the sad things going on in village, the cancers, the strokes, the accidents. How come an omnipotent power is not stopping these? The children could be told about the main news from Ireland in the past 2 weeks.
How about replacing all the time spent on religious guff at the school with a ‘Current Affairs’ session; teaching children life as it really is.
I knew Mr Bestick well – I have a book he gave me when I left the village school. The rectory I was referring to was the Devon Hotel one, long predating Bestick. Bestick lived in the present rectory.
Gavin seems a most kind and modest person although very misguided. Can I ask how he receives answers to his questions to god? I think he may say they come as his thoughts. He would be just talking to himself then? He does not believe the story in Genesis is literal. Is he picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe? Is the theory of evolution taught at the school? We do not know and would guess that it would be disparaged if so, because it is incompatible with CofE belief.
The school takes a ‘holier than thou attitude’ and believes non Christians are inferior.
Peter has got it right about prayer. How to do nothing and still think you are helping.
Here is the challenge. Come on, show us any single example of a prayer being answered.
While I accept that the term ‘rev’ is acceptable as referring to a church minister. It is short for reverend which means: one who is to be respected. Gavin please tell us why we should respect you any more than anybody else? Suggest you call yourself something else perhaps
All for today Thank you
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